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Mast Motorsports L92 416 VVT Marine Engine

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Mast Motorsports L92 416 VVT Marine Engine

Postby RoadMaster » Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:59 am

With all the "changes" in the auto industry and the introduction of the LSA I have been reading and doing lots of studying of the available custom engine options and I came across the custom builds that Mast is doing and thought I would share the info. They are specialist with the VVT engines and are doing some way cool crate engines that I think would be just killer in a jet boat. Their Cyclone build is an aluminum 6.2 stroked to a 6.8 with VVT and it will run on 87 octane.........Now this has my attention......check out the LSA vs 416 dyno…......FYI the 416 is less wt than the LSA because it doesn't need an inner cooler and an extra heat exchanger and fluid to keep it cool......further the 6L marine stuff will bolt right up to it and even my cold air intake will fit :mrgreen:

http://www.mastmotorsports.com/marine.php

I have also been reading how the offshore boating world has received the LSA and it is mixed because in the 30+ ft boats the LSA is in a boost situation at "cruising" speed and therefore leading to potential early replacement. So some engine suppliers have gone to developing a stroked aluminum block because they can get the same performance with natural air and run 87 octane.....the al 6.2 block has opened the door to the stroked build in a new way. It can be stroked to a 427 (7.0) also......now all that power and less wt than a 6L.

Mast also has a cam kit (cam and valve springs and new phaser - 800+/- bills) that will add about 60HP to my 6L which temps me........Just not sure I want to pull the engine out and then have to reprogram ($$$??) it for just 15% increase........Does anyone have an idea on the cost of a re-flash and tune?
Attachments
cyclone specs.jpg
Cyclone
cyclone dyno.jpg
Cyclone Dyno - Mast MS Info
LSA-Dyno.jpg
LSA Dyno - GM Marine Info
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Re: Mast Motorsports L92 416 VVT Marine Engine

Postby Oakes1 » Thu Nov 12, 2009 1:25 pm

I don't believe there is anyone in the aftermarket world that can flash and reprogram the MEFI 5 motors (yet). You would have to go back to a MEFI 4 and then start with a base program and edit to suit your needs.

I'm actually in the process of making 2 415sbc, and using the MEFI 4b, MPI 5.7 electronics. I am very early in the plan/build stage, but a 8.1HP torque and HP curve should be very easy to accomplish. We will see.....
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Re: Mast Motorsports L92 416 VVT Marine Engine

Postby buck » Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:54 pm

450 hp @ 4500 rpm. no super charger. doubts a 212 would hold it back?
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Re: Mast Motorsports L92 416 VVT Marine Engine

Postby Ahusk » Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:09 pm

I don't understand why KEM or Marinepower is not offering a marinized version of the CT-525 ls3 that the race boat guys in Canada are using for there new crate motor class. 525 horsepower gm crate motor, no supercharger to worry about and very light. My guess is that the flat torque curve of the LSA has alot to do with why it was the go to jetboat motor.
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Re: Mast Motorsports L92 416 VVT Marine Engine

Postby MTRiverRunner » Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:19 pm

It makes less Torque than an LSA at those RPMs so I dont think that a 212 would have a problem with it.
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Re: Mast Motorsports L92 416 VVT Marine Engine

Postby RoadMaster » Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:56 pm

Oaks - sounds like you are having fun with your build. If I were doing it all over again (building) I would defiantly do a custom engine build. I was afraid nobody is working with the MEFI 5. I know it was like pulling teeth to get the CAN codes and most are proprietary. If I changed out I would go with the MAST M-90 ECM because it is already tuned for my 6L and their VVT cam kit. I added that up and I might as well change out my engine for a new one.

MTRR - yes this is a bit less than the LSA but it runs that on 87 octane.....An if you want to out run the LSA just stroke it out to a 427 and then you are there. This is what Chriso did in his ride. I have read many many articles about how the new LS3 block is turning the stroking world upside down. They have so much potential and at a reasonable cost it is really something motor heads have been dreaming about for years.

I also agree that a tuned 212 would not have any problems with it. I know Ryan's LSA's and 213's are just rockets.
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Re: Mast Motorsports L92 416 VVT Marine Engine

Postby ruffrider » Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:33 pm

I'm actually in the process of making 2 415sbc, and using the MEFI 4b, MPI 5.7 electronics


Oakes: What combination are you using to get 415 ci in? I like oddball stuff like that, but that's one I'm not familiar with... Any details on your planned build?
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Re: Mast Motorsports L92 416 VVT Marine Engine

Postby matthewfnorbert » Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:46 am

I drove a 14foot scottboat the other day, fitted with 852 jet and 6.0 LS engine with 560HP, it was gooood :D
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Re: Mast Motorsports L92 416 VVT Marine Engine

Postby MTRiverRunner » Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:55 am

RoadMaster wrote:
MTRR - yes this is a bit less than the LSA but it runs that on 87 octane.....An if you want to out run the LSA just stroke it out to a 427 and then you are there. This is what Chriso did in his ride. I have read many many articles about how the new LS3 block is turning the stroking world upside down. They have so much potential and at a reasonable cost it is really something motor heads have been dreaming about for years.

.


I E-mailed them and they said that all their motors are designed to run on 91. Technically you could run an LSA on 87 too. If you look at the data sheet from GM for the LSA, "premium fuel is reccomended, not required".

They did say that they will have a 700 HP version available soon!
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Re: Mast Motorsports L92 416 VVT Marine Engine

Postby Oakes1 » Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:39 pm

ruffrider wrote:
I'm actually in the process of making 2 415sbc, and using the MEFI 4b, MPI 5.7 electronics


Oakes: What combination are you using to get 415 ci in? I like oddball stuff like that, but that's one I'm not familiar with... Any details on your planned build?



Its a standard bore dart SHP block 4.125 with a 3.875 crank and 6 inch rods. I may just go with a 427 and us a 4 inch stroke. I am alittle concern about side loading the piston bores with a 4 inch stroke. Short block is a SHP, cal. crank, H beam rods, and forged dished pistons. The SHP block used the factory roller cam system, and I will have a custom small base circle cam ground to about the same specs as the GM zz4 hot cam, and will use 1.6 rockers to bump the lift. I was really leaning towards using the stock vortec heads because they will flow plenty for the relitively low RPMs this motor will turn, but now I'm really looking at the AFR 185 heads. More for wieght savings then anything else ( a few more hp, but not significant). My goal is to turn a 4.0 impellar to 4100 RPMS. I have never been in a twin with 4.0s, but I would guess they would have a very nice cruising speed at 2700 RPMs.

This whole thing came about because of the hugely inflated prices the marine industry has put on motors. The 5.7 are damn near 8k now and the 383s are above 10k. Thats just stupid. An don't get me started on the new tech stuff like the 6.2. Hell, for another 3k I could build these with alumimum blocks and be just as light as anything out there. Plus I can go to any parts store and get stuff for them....
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Re: Mast Motorsports L92 416 VVT Marine Engine

Postby Oakes1 » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:01 pm

For some reason my computer is doing wierd this if I type anything more then the last post. So I must start another.

Ideally I will have a set up, that if a guy wanted to, he could buy a long block, change the injectors, have the ECM reflashed, and he would go from a bfi. 5.7 slug to a bfi. 7.5 rocket for about 1/3 what it would cost to buy a new high tech hot rod motor.

I'll let everyone know how it goes. As of right now I have the 2 doner 5.7s and a whole lot of literature and research. I talked to DART the other day, and they are now building a SHP 427 in house....which is really really cool...
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Re: Mast Motorsports L92 416 VVT Marine Engine

Postby RoadMaster » Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:44 am

MTRiverRunner wrote:
RoadMaster wrote:
MTRR - yes this is a bit less than the LSA but it runs that on 87 octane.....An if you want to out run the LSA just stroke it out to a 427 and then you are there. This is what Chriso did in his ride. I have read many many articles about how the new LS3 block is turning the stroking world upside down. They have so much potential and at a reasonable cost it is really something motor heads have been dreaming about for years.

.


I E-mailed them and they said that all their motors are designed to run on 91. Technically you could run an LSA on 87 too. If you look at the data sheet from GM for the LSA, "premium fuel is reccomended, not required".

They did say that they will have a 700 HP version available soon!


Well then I stand corrected its 91 then.....I run 91 now anyway even though my 6L only needs 87. I know MP recommended 92 on the 6L SC and thought it was the same on the LSA since they made it a bit hotter than GM's. I can get 91 just about everywhere (except at flaming gorge in Utah) but 92 is pretty tough for me.....700 HP version....now that is just insane!!!!

Oaks - A dart 427 would be pretty sweet!!!!! Way back in my younger days when I was building a bored out 440 with duel quads on a high rise tunnel ram (spec’ed at 650 HP :mrgreen: ) I remember drooling over the "new" Dart AL blocks. Man I still remember the pain of waiting 8 months for the crank, rods and pistons to be balanced. Seems we sent ours in just before race season and us motor heads got put last on the list. The balance guys guaranteed it would spin at 8K with no problems…….although we didn’t have the valve springs to go that high it was fun to think about………..Many I spent a little too much money at Summit back then
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Re: Mast Motorsports L92 416 VVT Marine Engine

Postby MTRiverRunner » Sun Nov 15, 2009 10:44 am

RoadMaster wrote:

Well then I stand corrected its 91 then.....I run 91 now anyway even though my 6L only needs 87. I know MP recommended 92 on the 6L SC and thought it was the same on the LSA since they made it a bit hotter than GM's. I can get 91 just about everywhere (except at flaming gorge in Utah) but 92 is pretty tough for me.....700 HP version....now that is just insane!!!!




Now, I am not sure what MP says, just stating what is on the GM website about the LSA. I would guess that MP is going to say that you HAVE to run 91. There is a knock sensor in the motor that should retard the timing and pull boost when lesser fuel is used, no matter how much they have it suped up. I am not sure if it will pull boost or not, that was a guess really.

I wouldnt run 91 in your motor if 87 is reccomended. You certaily arent doing any harm, but you definately arent doing any good either. Technically 91 will produce less power and get worse fuel economy than 87 if the motor is not running in detonation with the 87. The difference would be so minimal that it would be impercievable though. Just saying that you dont need to be spending the extra money.
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Re: Mast Motorsports L92 416 VVT Marine Engine

Postby dustin » Sun Nov 15, 2009 6:24 pm

im pretty sure the ECU would pull timing. as far as i know they dont have an electronic solenoid (electric wastegate) to pull boost under detonation conditions.
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Re: Mast Motorsports L92 416 VVT Marine Engine

Postby RoadMaster » Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:47 pm

MTRiverRunner wrote:
I wouldnt run 91 in your motor if 87 is reccomended. You certaily arent doing any harm, but you definately arent doing any good either. Technically 91 will produce less power and get worse fuel economy than 87 if the motor is not running in detonation with the 87. The difference would be so minimal that it would be impercievable though. Just saying that you dont need to be spending the extra money.



The main reason I run 91 is that I have read that untreated ethanol fuel looses octane very quickly. If I remember right MP says 87 min recommend 89 so I just have a bit just in case kind of thing. I treat at the pump every time I fill up. She runs real good be maybe I need to do a test and run the next tank see if she runs the same.
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Re: Mast Motorsports L92 416 VVT Marine Engine

Postby dustin » Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:51 am

i think what mtriverrunner was getting at is that the higher octane fuel burns slower. therefor less bang in each fire. the reason we use higher octane in motorsports is because of the elevated compression ratios.
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Re: Mast Motorsports L92 416 VVT Marine Engine

Postby MTRiverRunner » Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:02 am

dustin wrote:i think what mtriverrunner was getting at is that the higher octane fuel burns slower. therefor less bang in each fire. the reason we use higher octane in motorsports is because of the elevated compression ratios.


Sort of. THere is actually less energy in an octane molecule (C8) than a regular straight chain gasolene molecule (>C8). So with more Octane swimming around in there, technically there is less energy in the fuel gallon for gallon. Again, you probably would never see the difference since the difference in potential energy in the fuel is very very small.
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Re: Mast Motorsports L92 416 VVT Marine Engine

Postby RoadMaster » Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:28 am

MTRiverRunner wrote:
dustin wrote:i think what mtriverrunner was getting at is that the higher octane fuel burns slower. therefor less bang in each fire. the reason we use higher octane in motorsports is because of the elevated compression ratios.


Sort of. THere is actually less energy in an octane molecule (C8) than a regular straight chain gasolene molecule (>C8). So with more Octane swimming around in there, technically there is less energy in the fuel gallon for gallon. Again, you probably would never see the difference since the difference in potential energy in the fuel is very very small.


MRR - since I know you are a Chem E and I am a lowly CE I thought I would take it under consideration and do a little more info finding. For all the auto/trucks LY6's they recommend 87, however, they are only rated at 375hp. The marine LY6's (indmar for example rated at 400hp same as mine) recommends a 89 minimum for fuel octane. I went over the MP documentation last night and it is very vague and general (I don't know were I got the 89 in my head) so if I follow indmar's numbers I should run 89 or 91.....now remember I'm a CE so I have a real problem using a "min" number :lol:
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Re: Mast Motorsports L92 416 VVT Marine Engine

Postby MTRiverRunner » Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:52 pm

Not sure about Indmar's reccomendations, they may have a different tune or may even have the knock sensor disabled in their ECM who knows. Here is a test you can do. Run 89 or 91 and chart the outside temperature and maximum RPMs that you are able to run for 1 min sustained running. Then run some 87 at the same altitude and outside temperature and see what your WOT RPMs are for the same 1 min of sustained WOT running. If they are the same (meaning the ECM is not retarding the timing and the engine is not running in detonation), then you simply arent gaining anything with the higher octane fuel at that altitude When you go to lower altitudes,there is more ambient pressure and the engine is more likely to detonate.

I dont understand why a CE is any less of a degree than a Chem E? Same stuff, different points of view. I wish that I had gone CE, there is more work around where I live for Civils.
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Re: Mast Motorsports L92 416 VVT Marine Engine

Postby RoadMaster » Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:04 pm

MTRiverRunner wrote:Not sure about Indmar's reccomendations, they may have a different tune or may even have the knock sensor disabled in their ECM who knows. Here is a test you can do. Run 89 or 91 and chart the outside temperature and maximum RPMs that you are able to run for 1 min sustained running. Then run some 87 at the same altitude and outside temperature and see what your WOT RPMs are for the same 1 min of sustained WOT running. If they are the same (meaning the ECM is not retarding the timing and the engine is not running in detonation), then you simply arent gaining anything with the higher octane fuel at that altitude When you go to lower altitudes,there is more ambient pressure and the engine is more likely to detonate.

I dont understand why a CE is any less of a degree than a Chem E? Same stuff, different points of view. I wish that I had gone CE, there is more work around where I live for Civils.


Chem E's have to take the organic chem stuff :ugeek: :ugeek: :ugeek: ..........

For my own piece of mind and ($$) I talked to MP and they said "if you want to try running lower (than 91) just see if there is any loss in performance" Pretty much as you recommended above.....however, after having a discussion on what performance I'm currently getting out of my boat he pretty much said why throw a wrench in that :mrgreen:
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